Glenn Caldwell of NAL

Chris, Safety Dawg (1s):
All right. This week's guest is Glenn Caldwell on N.A.L. Glenn and I are talking about insurance insurance coverage, which third party insurance coverage during this covid 19 crisis. And just generally speaking, why owner up leaders could use a product that replaces W.S.I.B.. So with that, let's get into the interview.

Chris, Safety Dawg (30s):
Welcome to the dawg on it trucking podcast. I'm your host Chris Harris, safety dawg. And when it comes to trucking safety, the dawg is on it. I am so privileged to be able to sit and discuss with a variety of trucking influencers, a wide range of trucking topics. And you get to hear their perspective on an enormous range of issues. Please, if you would show your appreciation for the podcast by leaving a thumbs up, a comment, a rating, depending on the platform of your choice that you're listening or watching with, it would help me so much raise the profile of this show and bring it and make it available to even more listeners.

Chris, Safety Dawg (1m 17s):
So thank you very much. I appreciate you and your time that that takes. Now let's get on with it.

Glenn Caldwell (1m 23s):
Sure.

Chris, Safety Dawg (1m 30s):
Hey clay, welcome to the dawg on a trucking show. How in the heck are you? I'm doing well there. Chris how are you doing? A pretty good, you know, we're, uh, probably like you all locked up in the house and uh, you know,

Glenn Caldwell (1m 46s):
Hey covid 19 that we're in the middle of this town. Self isolation is hitting everybody. We just got back from Mexico on the Friday the 13th. And so we've been kind of in lockdown mode for a couple of weeks ourselves. So, uh, um, I'm hoping by the end of it, my wife's, my wife still likes me.

Chris, Safety Dawg (2m 5s):
Okay. Yeah, I mean, I guess in some ways I'm blessed because my wife's business, I get to come here to the office where she's a dental hygienist, so she's been closed for two weeks already. So there no traffic in this building at all. And I'm the only one in the building. So I get to leave the house, come to my office, then in my office, in the basement all by myself. But it's good, you know? Yeah. Uh, Hey, tell us Glenn Kelby, uh, everybody about yourself and what you've been doing, and I'm really interested in your history of, uh, trucking insurance or are the products that you are selling to independent operators.

Glenn Caldwell (2m 51s):
Okay. Well, thank you. Chris. First of all, thanks for having me on this. I've been watching the episodes and that there've been very informative. Um, maybe you, the history of N.A.L. N.A.L. Has been in business now since 1955. Um, we were, uh, basically an auto club company that provided, uh, uh, auto club in insurance programs to a small businesses, farmers, that type of thing. Uh, in the early eighties, we started a roadside assistance business where we've provided a roadside assistance, do a lot of the auto manufacturers.

Glenn Caldwell (3m 22s):
So companies like Lexus and maybe Jaguar, BMW pretty well. Every vehicle today has some kind of auto club attached to it. That's N.A.L. Was back then as well. And I get in the mid eighties, uh, we sat down with a number of truck drivers to develop plans specifically to help them out cause they really didn't have anything. So, uh, N.A.L. Truck division was formed. Um, and, uh, that was sold in on. It was N.A.L. Truck division, which became national truck league. That was sold in 92. Uh, I actually went to work for Intel in 1994 and then just, uh, I just came back to N.A.L.

Glenn Caldwell (3m 55s):
Now it's been 10 years. Yeah. It's, I know you've been back for what seems like a long time. I mean, we go back to your NTL days. That's what I first met you. Yep. Yep. But when I was with P and, T, we were purchasing the product from NGL in those days. So what was that not be a long time ago? We, uh, I, I, I was dark haired and you had actual hair. That's it. I mean it was a long, long time ago.

Glenn Caldwell (4m 27s):
It's 25 years maybe. Well, I'm flying a good history, a good relationship. I think you and I have developed and we're going to, one of the things I, we were talking earlier about covid 19. I was so happy that you and any L chemo with a clear and concise statement as to coverage or owner operators during this, um, and demic can you elaborate on that?

Glenn Caldwell (4m 58s):
Are owner operators covered? Yeah, so we, we, we, when this first hit, the hit the press and stuff, we were very, uh, proactive and reached out to our provider to make sure that, uh, that our drivers were covered. We've always seen them as an essential workers and, and you know what they do for us, we've got to, I got to say thank you because, you know, a lot of us are locked up in our homes and we're still getting our things because of the drivers that are out, you know, picking up and delivering for us and you know, they're, they're risking things, right.

Glenn Caldwell (5m 29s):
So, uh, yeah, they covid is covered providing, they don't have symptoms before they go to the States. And I think a lot of the providers last week that originally he said, Hey, we're not going to cover covid on 19 has changed, basically saying because it isn't an essential service now. And, um, as long as a driver doesn't have covid symptoms going into the States, they're going to be covered under the policy. I think that's because, do we trucking rate at the

Chris, Safety Dawg (5m 58s):
moment? You know?

Glenn Caldwell (6m 1s):
Well, it is. It's, uh, you know, the, the travel advisory was the big thing that a lot of the policies had. Um, which our plan does not have a travel advisory based on a government coming in and saying, Hey, don't travel. Um, we've got a travel advisory for war and a few other things. But, so this was, this was pretty key. So, you know, we're recommending a, because is still someone certainly out there with, with some of the other individual plans. I think all the group companies have said, Hey, no, we are a kind of, cover this off there.

Glenn Caldwell (6m 32s):
Again, if, if somebody doesn't have symptoms going into the U S um, but I think the key thing for a fleet to do is, is if they have a bunch of individual plans out there that they need to speak to the broker, uh, and get, you know, con confirmation that it is going to cover them. Yeah.

Chris, Safety Dawg (6m 50s):
Yeah, I would think that would be a huge undertaking. Um, because there are, uh, you know, any is, is one company, but you have a great deal of competition. There's a number of other companies out there that provide similar or pretend to provide similar coverage. However, as I say, I, I was just so happy that NTL King or sorry, a L chemo right at the beginning and said, no, owner operators you are covered in the States. Keep trucking.

Chris, Safety Dawg (7m 20s):
Um, yeah, I S because there was a lot of negative news, uh, I think I've told you, you know, my daughter works on a cruise ship, so there's a lot of people on cruise ships and stuff, but, um, we're facing travel insurance that all of a sudden they weren't, they didn't have travel insurance anyway.

Glenn Caldwell (7m 38s):
Absolutely happen. That's pretty scary week last week. I think a lot of that's been cleared up with key factor is, Hey, you know, if you're uncertain, um, or be certain by calling your broker and your insurance company to, to get verification. Yup. Because I think there are still a few out there that are, uh, that may be, uh, in the, in the gray area.

Chris, Safety Dawg (7m 56s):
Anyways, I just wanted to say thanks to an excuse me, any Alfre, uh, tackling it head head on right at the beginning. Um, in answering that question, one of the things that I'm really proud of N.A.L. And of course I have no affiliation with any yell, but is your healthytrucker program, uh, as we get through this, um, epidemic, our health has become really important and I don't even know how many years ago did any else start the healthy and

Glenn Caldwell (8m 27s):
corporate program? I think, I think it's seven years ago now. Um, and kind of the main reason we got into it was, um, for TCA members. And uh, at the time we were down and there was at the convention, 90% of what they talked about was what's the health of, of the driver at that conference. A number that came up was pretty scary, was the number 61. Um, any idea what that significance of that number has to our industry today is at the age of the truck driver. It's got to do, it's sadly, it's the average lifespan of a long haul driver in the U S right now.

Glenn Caldwell (9m 4s):
Ooh, that's the Harvard study, which, uh, and they, again, we've been debated on that study. Uh, some people say it's 62, 63, w w whatever, what the Harvard study basically said the average lifespan of a long haul trucker and the U S is 61, which is sad because the average American male lives to be 76, so there's a huge shortfall. So we got pretty worried. Our average age of our client is about 55 and, and, uh, um, you know, we noticed that claims were kind of going through the roof and, and a lot of it had to do with the health of the owner operator, right?

Glenn Caldwell (9m 39s):
So their lifestyle, um, there's something called the disease and if you sit for long periods of time, but you have the same risk of heart attack and stroke as somebody that smokes. So think about a driver that's sitting for long periods of time and smoking at the same time. The risks are even higher. So our, our goal with healthytrucker was to, um, basically get a driver, uh, more active and, and eating healthier. And you know, we started off with, uh, you may remember the Fitbit challenge we did for a lot of fleets, uh, where drivers would then staff would get Fitbits and we'd have walking challenges.

Glenn Caldwell (10m 15s):
I know we did it down at the TCA conference where we had all the executives competing and when we came back, we decided to run, uh, uh, uh, I'll walk around the world, uh, challenge, uh, with, with the entire industry. And we thought we'd probably do it in about three months. We had so many people involved in it. We did it and I think 23 days. So that was pretty cool. But the challenge with the Fitbit, with the driver is this, um, you know, companies were putting up prizes a lot of times, big prizes.

Glenn Caldwell (10m 47s):
And, uh, the problem with the Fitbit is, it's not necessarily steps that they were getting, but the vibration of the steering wheel was a through lane, the Fitbit off. Uh, so guys, we're getting 30,000 steps and not getting out of the truck. So we kind of scrapped the idea of it even though it was a great challenge that we had tons of people involved in and we got all kinds of press on it. Uh, we got involved a little late later drivers were saying, I just want to know, I want to know how to eat properly on it.

Glenn Caldwell (11m 19s):
So we created an app called healthy team. Drivers would take pictures of their meals, diet and exercise and post it. We had a leader board, probably the leaderboard was they were getting points based on an actual picture, not actually on, on having a healthy item in that picture. So we backed that idea, kind of got scrapped even though it went very well for most. So now we just coached them through email and, uh, uh, you know, videos and, and uh, uh, on the phone just to, you know, small changes over time is what Andrea says will create lasting change.

Glenn Caldwell (11m 52s):
So it's not a diet. It's a, it's a, it's a lifestyle change.

Chris, Safety Dawg (11m 56s):
Yeah. Which I got to believe that's huge. If you can manage to change a person's lifestyle, it is, it's for life. And that is going to, as you said, uh, what's the average age of truckers now?

Glenn Caldwell (12m 11s):
Well, if you're looking at 55 to 50, 70 pending on what study that you're looking at. But uh, yeah, so it's, uh, and it's not just, it's not just physical health. Um, you know, a healthy driver mentally and physically is going to be a safer driver. As you know. It's going to have fewer accidents. They're going to lose less time from work due to injury, illness, and they're, they're basically going to stick around in the industry longer. So you know, our partnership with more no ship Carl has been another big thing where we can get, give them access to counseling 24, seven for fingers to do with stress, depression, anxiety.

Glenn Caldwell (12m 45s):
You know, cause if the driver's got something on his mind, he's gotten nothing but miles to think about that issue. So getting them is kind of cute. It's really interesting

Chris, Safety Dawg (12m 56s):
think because I didn't know in the middle of this covid 19 crisis that we're having that you offered, um, mental health, uh, uh, covid you know, counseling because I'm sure there's a lot of people, I know I'm feeling this stress. Um, you know, I'm self-employed, my wife has self employed, we've cut no income at the moment. Uh, it's, it can be a stressful time. Absolutely. You know, owner operators are self-employed. Uh, if there were looking at the moment, that's one thing, but there's a lot of factories that have shut down as well.

Chris, Safety Dawg (13m 29s):
And of course that could cause a different type of stress because not all of trucking is going crazy at the moment as the food guys are in some of the other segments.

Glenn Caldwell (13m 38s):
Yeah. Can you, so just the less weight on the, yeah. You don't like, and there again, uh, I'm not an expert when it comes to mental health by any means. Uh, but it is a very challenging time for, for everybody right now. Um, so having access to a program through either an EAP, through your work, a lot of companies have that where you get access to counseling 24, seven or you can call and speak to somebody that's very important. Um, we need, uh, uh, we, we really stress the importance of, you know, if you've got something on your mind, obviously talk to somebody and not just don't talk to your discipline of them.

Glenn Caldwell (14m 18s):
Don't want, don't want to speak to their, to their dispatch. They want to speak to somebody if they can get, uh, some help with or external,

Chris, Safety Dawg (14m 27s):
I realized that was available. That's awesome. Um,

Glenn Caldwell (14m 29s):
yeah, so a lot of, yeah, a lot of, uh, they're getting, most, most employee driver packages would have access to EAP, an employee assistance program. Uh, we do have some of our fleets that have purchased the, the, the extended version of healthytrucker. That does include the mental wellness as well. Um, you know, we got into another unique one that we're, we're, we're working on as well, uh, where a driver can get access to speak to a doctor out of the cab of their truck. Uh, which is kind of cool instead of trying to, you know, that they can't find a place to park their truck at a, at a, at a clinic.

Glenn Caldwell (15m 5s):
So this is where they can, you know, it's like a Skype call where they can speak to a Canadian doctor and talk about their symptoms and certain prescriptions can be written for that as well. So that's a plan that we're kind of working on as well for clients. Just sorry, I hope that didn't sound like a pitch. Yeah, no, no, but like older operators, they need, um, well answer this, why do owner operators need coverage? A third party, uh, insurance such as what you provide, but not necessarily just yours, but why do they need the coverage?

Glenn Caldwell (15m 40s):
So let's, good question. Now, are you talking about like the W.S.I.B. Alternative solutions? Yes. Okay. So in Ontario, in Quebec, owner-operators that own their vehicles, either truck, have an opportunity for profit and loss, have the opportunity to opting out of W.S.I.B.. CSS tease a little different. But in Ontario there's a form called an 1149, eight or 1157, eight that um, I don't refer to complete. They send it in with their documents of ownership, articles of incorporation and signed by both the fleet M and the a baler operator.

Glenn Caldwell (16m 13s):
They would get a letter back from the board that deems or status is independent and then they got three options. They can buy personal covers through W.S.I.B. Which not a lot do because of the costs. I think. Um, if they have access to private and coverage, which would be us or other companies or really W.S.I.B. Doesn't care if they do, uh, get another plan in place because all their sad is you're independent now you have independent status, therefore your offer. USI being a key thing is only on our operators that complete that for one cannot get up W.S.I.B.

Glenn Caldwell (16m 44s):
All other drivers, regardless of their contract, still required W.S.I.B. Under, under the act. The other thing is, um, when you look at, um, why you put coverage in place is, uh, the auto policy has something called statutory accident benefits. So primary insurance premiums are, are sky high as it is. So the last thing, and if an owner operator is disabled in a truck related vehicle or accidents, they have the option of filing a claim under something called the statutory activity.

Glenn Caldwell (17m 18s):
So things like medical loss of earnings, that type of thing is, is all, is all available to them. It's key that when they're buying a package, they look for something that's, we need to be long term, not just short term, but something that's going to be a longterm, very similar to what W.S.I.B. We would provide a key factors. You want to have something that's going to be first payer, meaning it's not going to direct the policy or indirect the benefit back to the carriers auto policy, uh, and get something that's gonna cover stable preexisting conditions, especially with the whole covid stuff.

Glenn Caldwell (17m 51s):
So I think that was maybe around longer

Chris, Safety Dawg (17m 53s):
answer back, but you brought up two things. I want to dig a little bit deeper into first payer. Can you explain that in layman's terms? So without an owner operator can understand what first payer means and the the effect that if you're not, if the insurance policy isn't the first payee or however you properly say it, what, how does that affect the owner operator?

Glenn Caldwell (18m 19s):
Okay. So, uh, you know, most policies when it comes to disability benefits are set up as first pair. There are some that are set up. His second pair, meaning if you have other insurance that you can go to, I need the carriers auto policy, then they're going to push you to that policy. As I said, most of the companies that are selling to owner operators today, uh, with the exception, I think one or maybe two have half first peer status. A lot of them however, have second payer status when it comes to medical.

Glenn Caldwell (18m 49s):
So things like SEO, Cairo, that's at the major things, uh, when it comes to vehicle related accidents, number of them have a second pair of clause that would actually push that benefit back to the carriers auto policy. Uh, where it's been very troubling is obviously captives insurance, insurance companies that they're responsible for the first 10 to 50 to a hundred thousand dollars. These, these are getting hit by the, these medical claims, which it's, it's the, it's the fleets money or, or the insurance company's money as well.

Glenn Caldwell (19m 22s):
So, uh, that's, that can be a challenge.

Chris, Safety Dawg (19m 25s):
That's all int interest. I mean my background was a old Republic in the old days. I know we were always concerned about these third party, uh, insurance providers like yours who weren't first painting cause it would get thrown back onto ours. And then we have to recoup through premium from the trucking company.

Glenn Caldwell (19m 48s):
The biggest one, you look at his, his travel medical, uh, if there are some providers that are excess only meaning they would kick it back to the carriers auto policy. And that's where the bills can be substantial. You know, we had one pill, one guy that was involved in an accident in Texas that, uh, uh, I think he was getting out of his truck and he got hit by another vehicle. It was in a coma for a while. The bell was well over 700,000 us. Plus he's got with all of his benefits from better from weekly indemnity or monthly indemnity and the, and the medical, it's well over a million.

Glenn Caldwell (20m 21s):
Now, if our policy would've said excess, that would have all gone back to the carriers auto policy. And the trucking company only had, I think 23 trucks. So 23 owner-operators. So that would have been devastating to the, to the, to the, uh, truck insurance provider. Right. They wouldn't have been able to get insurance.

Chris, Safety Dawg (20m 41s):
Yeah. And insurance and today's market, I'm sure you're well of it. Uh, for the trucking industry, it is a challenge to keep your premiums under control. Now, the other part of the question, besides first payee, you, you alluded to it, but you didn't come right out and say it. Um, the driver inc model that's very popular today. If I'm a driver that's incorporated and I'm getting paid to self employed, do I qualify to opt out of W.S.I.B.

Chris, Safety Dawg (21m 13s):
In purchase a third party, uh, equivalent or something similar to W.S.I.B.?

Glenn Caldwell (21m 20s):
So does, does the, the driver inc driver on the truck?

3 (21m 23s):
Uh, no. I would say the, uh, the company owns the truck. And do they eat, do they pay the fuel, the majority of expenses? Do they have an opportunity for profit and loss? Uh, no, they're a, they're basically a, uh,

Chris, Safety Dawg (21m 36s):
driver that's incorporated, that's receiving direct pay. It, you know, they, they, they're not paying for the repairs. They're not paying for the, uh, the fuel.

Glenn Caldwell (21m 48s):
So to opt out of W.S.I.B. In the province of Ontario, they have to be able to complete the 1149, eight. It States that they own the truck that pay the fuel, they have an opportunity for profit and loss, and they don't get a tea for a, and none of that falls into place for driver. Inc driver so they do, they, they're covered under W.S.I.B.. They have to be covered under W.S.I.B..

Chris, Safety Dawg (22m 10s):
yeah. So, and that's a really good point. Hopefully people understand that driver inc basically are not, um, eligible for this. And you mentioned the T4 a, hopefully companies are issuing a when required when it's the correct form to be doing, you know, because Glenn you and I pay taxes and of course we want everyone to pay their fair share of taxes. What is legally required. So you're proceeding, you know, and

Glenn Caldwell (22m 42s):
your CTA and OTA. I've done a great job as bringing this to the, to the forefront and there's been a lot of action that's taken place. Uh, and you know, we'll see how that plays out this year.

Chris, Safety Dawg (22m 52s):
Yup. Okay. Uh, as we head into, uh, the middle of 20, 20 and even 20, 21, I think it's going to be a long road to, to hammer this driver inc model the way CTA would like it. Uh, but it is an ongoing battle and it's going to continue, which is fine. Glenn I, you know, to be respectful of your time, like I think, um, what haven't we talked about yet that we should be discussing?

Glenn Caldwell (23m 27s):
You know, you know, obviously the, the covid a huge top. That's, that's one key thing, you know, scab, half fleets speak to their broker. Um, you know, when you're allowing your owner operator stop that it W.S.I.B. Uh, our recommendation is to do something through so many production. Um, obviously to ensure not coverage is not only purchase, but more importantly maintained. Um, that's, that's kinda the biggest thing right now. And, and it's what we're recommending fleets come up with a minimum standard of coverage of what coverage should look like to ensure or reduce the risk and exposure as a fleet.

Glenn Caldwell (24m 4s):
So they're not going to have these claims filed against the auto policy. That's kind of a big thing. Um, you know, the retention, we're not sure what, what's gonna happen in the next little while with, uh, uh, with the economy. So, uh, sometimes owner operators are the first to kind of get laid off. We're hoping that that doesn't take place, obviously. Uh, but you know, if we can get this economy turned around quickly, I think everybody's going to kind of maintain what's going on right now within the industry.

Chris, Safety Dawg (24m 34s):
Yeah. I'm like you, I'm very hopeful. Like, you know, I do see a, a hit to the economy obviously when, uh, so many of us are shut down and hunker in our homes, but when those restrictions are released, um, I think there's going to be a pent up demand. I also think there's going to be some huge changes going forward. Just, you know, I'm thinking specifically people now getting groceries delivered for instance. Oh, I didn't, you know, I knew what was available before, but I never really used it.

Chris, Safety Dawg (25m 6s):
And then they use it and they go, damn, this is convenient. I'm going to continue to use this. So I think there's going to be significant changes coming forward, uh, because we're all doing things. Um, you know, this pawedcast was up and running before covid started. Uh, but it's relatively new. I think you're going to see a flood of other podcasts like this come up because

Glenn Caldwell (25m 30s):
all of a sudden we realize, Hey, we can do this virtually. Yes. Yeah, 100%. I've already started doing virtual meetings now with fleets, uh, because our, our S our businesses a lot face to face, um, where they want to see you and they want to kind of talk and ask the questions, the proper questions and, and uh, yeah, we're, we're starting to do more of that under zoom is what we're using. But, uh, uh, there's all kinds of things that you can do to stay connected.

Chris, Safety Dawg (25m 59s):
Yeah. And even my business model, I'm wondering how much time, uh, face to face time I need to have now. Uh, you know, anyway, it's, it's all going to be interesting. We're all gonna get through this. It's going to be, um, an interesting period of time. But I'm, I, I guess I'm an optimist. I know. We will get through it and we will again, you know, and we, we've been around long enough. We've seen the good, the bad and the ugly a few times.

Chris, Safety Dawg (26m 29s):
We know, we know it's going well. You know, we're, we're hunkering down. We know what we're, we're kind of prepared from what's gonna take place and hopefully hope most people are as well. Yeah, I think everybody has. Glenn I want to thank you for coming on. Uh, was a interview I took away again, first payee. I, I learned about that. Um, I didn't know about, uh, the healthytrucker and in some cases the mental health, but it also extends to if your company has purchased that. And I think during this crisis, that's a huge thing.

Chris, Safety Dawg (27m 0s):
And you know, we, we touched on the driver inc model and, uh, why owner-operators really need a coverage, third party payee, coverage Lake, and they N.A.L. Product. Um, but as you mentioned, there are a number of things. Are there, the companies, I like the idea of settlement deduction because that way, you know, that has been paid for. And I think as we come out of this thing, some people will be looking for ways to cut out expenses.

Chris, Safety Dawg (27m 33s):
Well, with, with the struggles now, uh, where things have slowed down a little bit,

Glenn Caldwell (27m 37s):
sometimes insurance is the first thing to go. And, uh, you know, I, I hate or it's, it's, it's difficult for a fleet when they're trying to gather a certificates of insurance every month or every quarter, uh, to ensure coverage has been maintained. It's due through settlement deduction, you know, come up with that minimum standard. I can send you a copy of what, what we use are in a lot of the insurance companies are using for that minimum standard. If you want to share it with, uh, uh, with listeners and, uh, yeah, just, uh, you know, it's in a way it's tough love saying, Hey guys, we want you to have protection.

Glenn Caldwell (28m 13s):
We want you to have a specific criteria here's one that meets it. If, you know, if you've got one that does meet this criteria, you know, by all means show it and will allow you to keep it. That's what we're suggesting, the cleats, uh, so they're not necessarily forcing them to take one specific plant, like forced them to take a minimum.

Chris, Safety Dawg (28m 31s):
Yeah. And I think that would be great. What I'll do is I'll, um, is that the minimum criteria is that on your website?

Glenn Caldwell (28m 40s):
Uh, we've got, I've got it in an article on my website, but I've, I've got it on a document that basically shows who can opt out. You can't, uh, what to look for and then, uh,

Chris, Safety Dawg (28m 50s):
you know what the minimum criteria should look like. All right. I'll figure out a way to put it, um, a link to somewhere, whether it be my website or yours. Okay. So that people can, if they want it, they can click on the link below. That will be in the show notes and that's a freebie from Glenn. Sweet. All right. Thanks Glenn I appreciate it so much. All right. I appreciate it. Chris act, stay healthy to everybody, you know, stay healthy, wash your hands, do it and everything we got to do and you know what? Stay isolated.

Chris, Safety Dawg (29m 20s):
That's when, that's the only way we're going to get this thing kicked. Yep. All the best, buddy. Thanks. All right, take care. Thanks. Hope you love the show as much as I did. That was a great interview and I thank you for hanging in there for the end. Please leave us a like a thumbs up, a review, a comment, a rating. If it is. Thank you so much and I do really appreciate your time and join us again next week for another exciting interview.